Why don't we use sticks for movement?

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There was a guy on a thread in the Steam Black Ops forum who said this about keyboard+mouse vs controller:

PC = You feel like actually aiming, but the movement is clonky. ASWD gives four direction, which combined gives 8 directions. (A, AS, S, SD, D, DW, W, WA.)

Console = Clonky aiming, as you have to "push" your view onto someone, losing the feel of actually aiming, but the movement is more dynamic, as control sticks give a 360 degree choice of movement. In short, ANY DIRECTION

I told him that I didn't notice the limitations of WASD because it is second-nature for PC gamers to look in the direction they want to go, or tap the direction keys if they want to strafe in an odd angle.

But it's a pretty fair point and it made me wonder, why haven't we seen any gaming keypads where, instead of WASD, there is a control stick for movement right underneath the middle finger? It would free up the ring and pointer fingers to do other things, and surely it would be reasonably easy to get used to.

The closest we've gotten is the Saitek Cyborg Command unit, which has a thumb joystick and is kind of ugly overall:

And the Belkin Nostromo, which has a thumb directional pad.

Has anyone ever tried these?

05/02/2011

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Pilkingbod

I'm not game enough to.

Looks like a modern Power Glove

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Desi

Oh, there's also the Logitech G13, which looks really cool (although the joystick looks a bit on the small and slippery side).

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Guyver

Combining the mouse with joystick would give PC games the most precise controls. Especially when it comes to variable movement speeds (walk, run and everything in between).
I would like to get something like the G13 at some point just to check it out but like all other PC gamers we've just adapted to the limitations of WSAD so I wont be going out of my way in a hurry to get one.

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Desi

Guyver said: Combining the mouse with joystick would give PC games the most precise controls. Especially when it comes to variable movement speeds (walk, run and everything in between).

They would only be really worth it if you could set up the joystick as an actual joystick, instead of having the different directions bound to WASD, which would be digital movement instead of analog. If it was the latter, then the only advantage in using a stick over WASD is that you only need to use one finger instead of three.

Guyver said: I would like to get something like the G13 at some point just to check it out but like all other PC gamers we've just adapted to the limitations of WSAD so I wont be going out of my way in a hurry to get one.

I was looking at them on eBay earlier. They're reasonably priced ($60-80) but as you said, I've adapted to WASD quite well so I don't really need it. Maybe for my birthday?

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Harry

Problem with sticks and keyboards is that in order for sticks to work, placement is vital.. One of the reason WASD works so well is because it allows quick access with your thumb and pinky to other buttons, meaning you can do more at once.

Sprint especially.. I hate having to push down on sticks and move it at the same time.. so twitchy and it's not good on the thumbs.

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M@ndyz

I always enjoyed the mouse and keyboard especially when I played morrowind years ago,, it's just feels "better" on the PC..

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Desi

Harry said: Problem with sticks and keyboards is that in order for sticks to work, placement is vital..

Yeah I'm not really a fan of the way the stick is placed on the ones I pictured above. The best, I think, would be to take my Wolfclaw Devour:

And have a very short (removable) joystick attachment right between the W and S keys. The joystick, I imagine, would be much like the stick on a PSP, except much grippier and with a deep indentation for the tip of your finger to sit in. Your pointer finger would be better at using it than your thumb, since you spent all that time on WASD, and because the movement keys haven't changed, the learning curve should be much gentler.

I guess the reason why they put it under your thumb, though, is because your ring and pointer fingers limit sideways movement of your middle finger somewhat (although this is not a big problem when it comes to moving a character in-game).

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Skarteh

I dunno. I aim and turn with the mouse so the only function the other joystick would perform would be forward and strafe. I think I'd rather use pressure sensitive keyboard keys with a little travel on them. Not like the PS3 buttons, more travel...

I can't see how the joystick would work comfortably while still giving you access to the necessary myriad of keys around WASD.

The 1 and 0 nature of a keyboard has always seemed a little backward. It give you immense response speed which I love, but I guess creeping would be a useful thing to be able to do rather than just a modifier like Sprint or Walk which we currently use. It would be nice to be able to balance out footstep noise and movement speed in Counterstrike for example, so you may not be super silent but still moving reasonably fast.

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Desi

Skarteh said: I dunno. I aim and turn with the mouse so the only function the other joystick would perform would be forward and strafe. I think I'd rather use pressure sensitive keyboard keys with a little travel on them. Not like the PS3 buttons, more travel...
I can't see how the joystick would work comfortably while still giving you access to the necessary myriad of keys around WASD.

Yup, the joystick would be entirely for forward/backward/strafing. It would basically be an analog version of WASD. The main thing I'm concerned with in using a joystick is that a) diagonal directions are easier, and b) only one finger is used, freeing up the other fingers.

So on the G13, for example, you wouldn't just have the buttons around the WASD position to use — you'd have those buttons in addition. And apparently the G13's joystick also pushes inwards from any orientation, which is basically movement and jumping on the one finger.

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Skarteh

That looks pretty damned uncomfortable :P with a controller your thumb is on a totally different angle @_@

That does not look like an angle promoting full range of movement...

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Desi

Skarteh said: That looks pretty damned uncomfortable with a controller your thumb is on a totally different angle
That does not look like an angle promoting full range of movement...

That's why I'm leaning towards the Saitek Cyborg thingymajig. It's kind of funny-lookin', but the joystick can be adjusted and moved around to get a good fit and angle.

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M@ndyz

I love the look of the wolfclaw.. I was considering one years ago. never got around to buying one. probably be first on my list if I was going to update my PC :)

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Desi

M@ndyz said: I love the look of the wolfclaw.. I was considering one years ago. never got around to buying one. probably be first on my list if I was going to update my PC

I highly, highly recommend it. I've had mine for maybe five years now.

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Silence

It's a good idea to improve precision, but I personally wouldn't be able to adapt to it. Hell, I still haven't gotten the hang of using regular analog sticks.

Here's another idea- why not put a PSP-esque slider on the side a mouse, positioned for the thumb? Trying to visualise it myself, it seems awkward, but it could really open up the keyboard for the left hand

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Desi

Movement and aiming on the one hand? No way, I'd die!

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Marshal976

Ha,ha I remembered I've got a Zboard Fang somewhere... I haven't used it since BF2... Going to find it...

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Desi

I whipped out my joystick and I'm macroing it up for BC2 right now! =D

Also, BLOPS loses more points: no joystick control option!

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SevenII

Thats the other thing: Not all games support analog movement. :(

How weird would it be to rig one up so it could be operated by your foot/feet/toes. :S

Though, its the logical way to go, considering we are already giving our fingers more than enough keys to handle.

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Skarteh

Lol Sev have you seen those foot switches at PCCG? I've been so tempted to get one for sprint/duck/prone or maybe jump. Free up some buttons for combat like mouse4/5 could be special/frag etc.

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Silence

Skarteh said: Lol Sev have you seen those foot switches at PCCG? I've been so tempted to get one for sprint/duck/prone or maybe jump. Free up some buttons for combat like mouse4/5 could be special/frag etc.

Rig up a DDR mat :P

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Skarteh

[Shifty] might be a tad large

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Desi

SevenII said: Thats the other thing: Not all games support analog movement.

Yeah, in such cases you're forced to bind the axes to WASD, which basically removes the advantage of a joystick unless you find a way to define an intermediate zone wherein the walk key (if there is such a key) is also held down while the WASD commands are being sent.

So I've just come back from playing the first two BC2 missions with a joystick, and here are my observations:

1) It kicks ass. Just having the ability to modify your speed without dicking around with Walk/Run toggles is very useful. With WASD we're used to crouch-walking whenever we want to take it slow, but with a joystick we're able to walk forward, or jog (and if I wanted to make a macro for it, run) without dicking around with speed toggles. Being able to walk upright instead of in a crouch means your head is no longer in an easy headshot position.

2) You shouldn't really do it with a full-size joystick. It's very cumbersome to use a full-size joystick, and there aren't enough buttons at your fingertips. Mine has five buttons on the stick so I was able to get by (Reload, Use, Jump, Crouch, Sprint), but I really missed the other keys I got used to having (pistol, view change, scoreboard). With macros I could combine several keys to simplify the process (combine Spot with Sprint, for example), but more buttons and a less bulky joystick are necessary.

3) Takes a while to acclimate. When you want to stop moving with WASD you simply don't press anything. With a joystick (especially a full-size one), you need to release pressure and allow the stick to return to neutral position. It may take a while to re-learn this behavior.

4) Flying! Joysticks are way better for flying than any other input.

In all, I think it's very much worth it to at least try using a joystick for a few hours. I know that as soon as I get some monies, I'm going to get a G3 or a Saitek keypad thingy and start learning how to use a joystick.

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Doyl

The thing that I find with using a thumbstick for movement on an obscure angle is they tend to not read that you are pushing it out 100%, so for some reason the movement of your character might slow to a walk rather than as fast as they can go.
Another thing, yes we not get that 360degree range from a thumbstick, but all it takes is the tiniest bump from your mouse to get yourself running that the desired direction.

I tried out the G13 you pictured above and well... the thumbstick is bound in 4 axis and 1 button, so it doesn't seem to register 360d anyway.
as for freeing up fingers, sure this might be the case but with the layout of the keyboard, moving your entire hand is quite common. Do that while controlling a thumbstick and you will probably end up accidentally letting go or pushing in the wrong direction.

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SevenII

Skarteh said: Lol Sev have you seen those foot switches at PCCG? I've been so tempted to get one for sprint/duck/prone or maybe jump. Free up some buttons for combat like mouse4/5 could be special/frag etc.

lol, I already have that config for my mouse. :P

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